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	<title>Comments on: WHY I AM NOT devastated by Proposition 8, and why Tuesday is a step forward</title>
	<atom:link href="http://countercritic.com/2008/11/06/why-i-am-not-devastated-by-proposition-8-and-why-tuesday-is-a-step-forward/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://countercritic.com/2008/11/06/why-i-am-not-devastated-by-proposition-8-and-why-tuesday-is-a-step-forward/</link>
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		<title>By: Swan Lake Samba Girl &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sunday Perusing &#124; Tonya Plank &#124; Writer, Dancer and Public Interest Lawyer</title>
		<link>http://countercritic.com/2008/11/06/why-i-am-not-devastated-by-proposition-8-and-why-tuesday-is-a-step-forward/#comment-1162</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Swan Lake Samba Girl &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sunday Perusing &#124; Tonya Plank &#124; Writer, Dancer and Public Interest Lawyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 16:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artzcritz.wordpress.com/?p=1538#comment-1162</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Critic reflects on the passage of Proposition 8 in [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Critic reflects on the passage of Proposition 8 in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: countercritic</title>
		<link>http://countercritic.com/2008/11/06/why-i-am-not-devastated-by-proposition-8-and-why-tuesday-is-a-step-forward/#comment-1160</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[countercritic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artzcritz.wordpress.com/?p=1538#comment-1160</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Paula-

Thanks for the thoughtful arguments. 

I think that Obama&#039;s official position was political, in that I think he really does believe gay couples should have the right to &quot;marry.&quot; I&#039;m not happy out his position, but I make that exception because I know if he had outright supported gay marriage, it could have cost him the election. (Read also this great piece in The Times about how Muslim people made a similar compromise when Obama repeatedly refused to censure the pejorative use of the term &quot;Muslim&quot; in the darker days of this campaign: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/nyregion/07muslims.html?_r=1&amp;hp&amp;oref=slogin). I consider this an adult compromise.

Remember too that legal Spousal Privilege is also one of the rights not extended to gay couples, therefore, leaving them in a position of being forced to testify against each other. That right is hugely important.

But one of you arguments I find problematic. The idea of embracing the &quot;abnormality&quot; of homosexuality, as if it is a result of &quot;wires crossing.&quot; I see what you&#039;re getting at, but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s a genetic miss-wiring. It may very well be genetic, but I just consider this a variety of beingness. Are left-handed people miss-wired? Red heads? Black people?

We&#039;re not the majority, but we&#039;re a consistent minority. There are homosexual people in absolutely every culture and country of the world. If you were studying birds and found that 10% of every bird species around the globe had purple feathers, you would indeed conclude that it is normal to find a few purple birds in any given flock.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Paula-</p>
<p>Thanks for the thoughtful arguments. </p>
<p>I think that Obama&#8217;s official position was political, in that I think he really does believe gay couples should have the right to &#8220;marry.&#8221; I&#8217;m not happy out his position, but I make that exception because I know if he had outright supported gay marriage, it could have cost him the election. (Read also this great piece in The Times about how Muslim people made a similar compromise when Obama repeatedly refused to censure the pejorative use of the term &#8220;Muslim&#8221; in the darker days of this campaign: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/nyregion/07muslims.html?_r=1&#038;hp&#038;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/nyregion/07muslims.html?_r=1&#038;hp&#038;oref=slogin</a>). I consider this an adult compromise.</p>
<p>Remember too that legal Spousal Privilege is also one of the rights not extended to gay couples, therefore, leaving them in a position of being forced to testify against each other. That right is hugely important.</p>
<p>But one of you arguments I find problematic. The idea of embracing the &#8220;abnormality&#8221; of homosexuality, as if it is a result of &#8220;wires crossing.&#8221; I see what you&#8217;re getting at, but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a genetic miss-wiring. It may very well be genetic, but I just consider this a variety of beingness. Are left-handed people miss-wired? Red heads? Black people?</p>
<p>We&#8217;re not the majority, but we&#8217;re a consistent minority. There are homosexual people in absolutely every culture and country of the world. If you were studying birds and found that 10% of every bird species around the globe had purple feathers, you would indeed conclude that it is normal to find a few purple birds in any given flock.</p>
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		<title>By: Paula</title>
		<link>http://countercritic.com/2008/11/06/why-i-am-not-devastated-by-proposition-8-and-why-tuesday-is-a-step-forward/#comment-1158</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paula]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:14:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artzcritz.wordpress.com/?p=1538#comment-1158</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So Barack Obama, who was born in the U.S. during a time that many states would not recognize his parents&#039; mixed-race marriage, has publicly supported &quot;SEPARATE BUT EQUAL&quot; civil unions for gays?? While the irony of that sinks in, please read on....

TO ALL WHO OPPOSE GAY MARRIAGE:

I think you&#039;re good people, like me. I pay my taxes that support my schools and religious institutions so they can give back to the community. I don&#039;t hurt anyone and only try to help. I oppose people who try to infringe on religious freedoms, and I don&#039;t seek to infringe upon what &quot;marriage&quot; means to you. I appreciate that most of you DO approve of &#039;domestic partnerships&#039; and &#039;civil unions&#039; for gay people, but please listen to why that doesn&#039;t work.

The federal government gives married people about 1000 rights. The state gives them about 400 additional rights. The reason the government is involved in marriage at all is to promote and protect stable, happy families as basic units of society. Obviously marriage is not solely for procreation, as we do not remove that right from you if you are infertile, elderly, or choose not to have children. When you marry, you are automatically entitled to those 1400 rights, including the right to visit a spouse in the hospital, be added to your spouse&#039;s insurance policies, acquire property with your spouse and automatically inherit it if your spouse dies, and many more. These 1400 rights are not simply and easily written up in a single civil document, nor always enforceable; for instance, a person under a state&#039;s domestic partnership can&#039;t force the IRS to give him the tax breaks afforded to married couples. It is extremely complex and doesn&#039;t always work; I am aware of gay people whose partners died and the deceased&#039;s hostile family successfully asserted their ownership of everything in spite of the contract, leaving the survivor destitute. Imagine children being involved, and a deceased partner&#039;s hostile family takes your children from you because your civil contract didn&#039;t stand up in court proving you were next of kin! In Arkansas, the majority just voted to prohibit unmarried people from adopting, meaning a gay person can&#039;t even adopt their partner&#039;s children to ensure that if their partner dies the children will remain with the surviving parent they love! 

 &#039;Civil unions&#039; and &#039;domestic partnerships&#039; permit OSTENSIBLY most of the 400 state-afforded rights of married couples, but NONE of the 1000 federal ones, and I can tell you from personal experience that the state ones are NOT equal.  Just one example is that to get on my partner&#039;s insurance policy, we had to provide our certificate of domestic partnership, copies of financial records proving we had co-mingled finances and lived in the same home for at least two years, and more. If I died, my partner would have to wait at least two years to add her new partner to the policy to prove the relationship was &#039;real&#039;. Married people don&#039;t even need to provide a copy of a marriage license, and if their spouse died today, they could add a new spouse tomorrow. This is only one example out of MANY. 

Other rights are specific to helping children of married people, including ensuring automatic inheritance rights, the right of a non-blood related parent to pick up a sick child from school, alimony and child support to help with their care in the event of divorce, and many more. No matter the makeup of the family or how it comes to be -- be it traditional nuclear, or grandparents raising their grandchild, or a blended family resulting from divorced people remarrying, or single parents, or adoptive parents, or childless couples, or gay couples -- ALL of these people deserve the same rights so they have the best chances of happiness and contribution to society.

What I would like to see the FEDERAL government do is create one proto-marriage type of relationship (&#039;civil union&#039;?) that applies equally to all people who want it, including granting them all 1400 of the rights and responsibilities that &quot;married&quot; people currently enjoy, and then simply leave the word &quot;marriage&quot; for religiously-inclined people who want to further consecrate their relationship according to their religions. I think that is what the MAJORITY of us all want. Unfortunately, the federal government is currently leaving the issue to states to decide, so we are stuck wrestling for the one word that currently encompasses all 1400 of those rights, and that word is &quot;marriage&quot;. Granting the existing rights encompassed by one word to a minority is a lot easier than changing 1400 laws to encompass them. That&#039;s really all there is to it, see? 

I understand many of you are afraid that legalizing gay marriage will lead to your children being forced to learn in school that homosexuality is &quot;normal&quot;.  I will be the first to agree with you that homosexuality is NOT &quot;normal&quot; - the parts don&#039;t fit and we can&#039;t make babies. But consider that in one out of every 100 live births, a child is born with ambiguous genitalia (intersexed). If God creates 1% of babies that way, why do we then do surgery to &quot;correct&quot; them to one sex or the other and make them &quot;normal&quot;? God made me abnormal too - I&#039;m among the small percentage of people whose wiring is crossed so I&#039;m attracted to my own sex.  My abnormality doesn&#039;t lead me to hurt anyone. The worst law I&#039;ve ever broken is the speed limit. Learning that homosexuals exist isn&#039;t going to turn any child homosexual, but it will help the small percentage born with this abnormality to feel less alone. That&#039;s really the worst that could happen. All the same, currently in California no child can be forced, against the will of their parents, to be taught anything about homosexuality at school.

As for the slippery slope arguments that legalizing gay marriage will automatically lead to legalizing polygamy or incestuous marriages, those forms of marriage existed throughout most of recorded history but are too impractical or undesirable for the vast majority of Americans to even consider. As for legalizing gay marriage leading to legalizing people marrying pets or children, these can&#039;t even give informed consent. Please stay off the slippery slope; the ONLY topic we&#039;re asking you to agree on is legalizing gay marriage.

We gay people and our families are being hurt by laws as they stand, and all we are asking for is the concession that the word &quot;marriage&quot; include us so we may enjoy its rights - and responsibilities. I will leave you with the words of Mildred Loving, who wrote this forty years after her 1967 legal case struck down laws barring interracial marriage: 

&quot;Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don&#039;t think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the &#039;wrong kind of person&#039; for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry.&quot;

Peace.

P.S. I voted for Barack Obama with the fervent hope that he&#039;ll come around to understanding the role he can play in advancing civil rights. Still hoping.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Barack Obama, who was born in the U.S. during a time that many states would not recognize his parents&#8217; mixed-race marriage, has publicly supported &#8220;SEPARATE BUT EQUAL&#8221; civil unions for gays?? While the irony of that sinks in, please read on&#8230;.</p>
<p>TO ALL WHO OPPOSE GAY MARRIAGE:</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re good people, like me. I pay my taxes that support my schools and religious institutions so they can give back to the community. I don&#8217;t hurt anyone and only try to help. I oppose people who try to infringe on religious freedoms, and I don&#8217;t seek to infringe upon what &#8220;marriage&#8221; means to you. I appreciate that most of you DO approve of &#8216;domestic partnerships&#8217; and &#8216;civil unions&#8217; for gay people, but please listen to why that doesn&#8217;t work.</p>
<p>The federal government gives married people about 1000 rights. The state gives them about 400 additional rights. The reason the government is involved in marriage at all is to promote and protect stable, happy families as basic units of society. Obviously marriage is not solely for procreation, as we do not remove that right from you if you are infertile, elderly, or choose not to have children. When you marry, you are automatically entitled to those 1400 rights, including the right to visit a spouse in the hospital, be added to your spouse&#8217;s insurance policies, acquire property with your spouse and automatically inherit it if your spouse dies, and many more. These 1400 rights are not simply and easily written up in a single civil document, nor always enforceable; for instance, a person under a state&#8217;s domestic partnership can&#8217;t force the IRS to give him the tax breaks afforded to married couples. It is extremely complex and doesn&#8217;t always work; I am aware of gay people whose partners died and the deceased&#8217;s hostile family successfully asserted their ownership of everything in spite of the contract, leaving the survivor destitute. Imagine children being involved, and a deceased partner&#8217;s hostile family takes your children from you because your civil contract didn&#8217;t stand up in court proving you were next of kin! In Arkansas, the majority just voted to prohibit unmarried people from adopting, meaning a gay person can&#8217;t even adopt their partner&#8217;s children to ensure that if their partner dies the children will remain with the surviving parent they love! </p>
<p> &#8216;Civil unions&#8217; and &#8216;domestic partnerships&#8217; permit OSTENSIBLY most of the 400 state-afforded rights of married couples, but NONE of the 1000 federal ones, and I can tell you from personal experience that the state ones are NOT equal.  Just one example is that to get on my partner&#8217;s insurance policy, we had to provide our certificate of domestic partnership, copies of financial records proving we had co-mingled finances and lived in the same home for at least two years, and more. If I died, my partner would have to wait at least two years to add her new partner to the policy to prove the relationship was &#8216;real&#8217;. Married people don&#8217;t even need to provide a copy of a marriage license, and if their spouse died today, they could add a new spouse tomorrow. This is only one example out of MANY. </p>
<p>Other rights are specific to helping children of married people, including ensuring automatic inheritance rights, the right of a non-blood related parent to pick up a sick child from school, alimony and child support to help with their care in the event of divorce, and many more. No matter the makeup of the family or how it comes to be &#8212; be it traditional nuclear, or grandparents raising their grandchild, or a blended family resulting from divorced people remarrying, or single parents, or adoptive parents, or childless couples, or gay couples &#8212; ALL of these people deserve the same rights so they have the best chances of happiness and contribution to society.</p>
<p>What I would like to see the FEDERAL government do is create one proto-marriage type of relationship (&#8216;civil union&#8217;?) that applies equally to all people who want it, including granting them all 1400 of the rights and responsibilities that &#8220;married&#8221; people currently enjoy, and then simply leave the word &#8220;marriage&#8221; for religiously-inclined people who want to further consecrate their relationship according to their religions. I think that is what the MAJORITY of us all want. Unfortunately, the federal government is currently leaving the issue to states to decide, so we are stuck wrestling for the one word that currently encompasses all 1400 of those rights, and that word is &#8220;marriage&#8221;. Granting the existing rights encompassed by one word to a minority is a lot easier than changing 1400 laws to encompass them. That&#8217;s really all there is to it, see? </p>
<p>I understand many of you are afraid that legalizing gay marriage will lead to your children being forced to learn in school that homosexuality is &#8220;normal&#8221;.  I will be the first to agree with you that homosexuality is NOT &#8220;normal&#8221; &#8211; the parts don&#8217;t fit and we can&#8217;t make babies. But consider that in one out of every 100 live births, a child is born with ambiguous genitalia (intersexed). If God creates 1% of babies that way, why do we then do surgery to &#8220;correct&#8221; them to one sex or the other and make them &#8220;normal&#8221;? God made me abnormal too &#8211; I&#8217;m among the small percentage of people whose wiring is crossed so I&#8217;m attracted to my own sex.  My abnormality doesn&#8217;t lead me to hurt anyone. The worst law I&#8217;ve ever broken is the speed limit. Learning that homosexuals exist isn&#8217;t going to turn any child homosexual, but it will help the small percentage born with this abnormality to feel less alone. That&#8217;s really the worst that could happen. All the same, currently in California no child can be forced, against the will of their parents, to be taught anything about homosexuality at school.</p>
<p>As for the slippery slope arguments that legalizing gay marriage will automatically lead to legalizing polygamy or incestuous marriages, those forms of marriage existed throughout most of recorded history but are too impractical or undesirable for the vast majority of Americans to even consider. As for legalizing gay marriage leading to legalizing people marrying pets or children, these can&#8217;t even give informed consent. Please stay off the slippery slope; the ONLY topic we&#8217;re asking you to agree on is legalizing gay marriage.</p>
<p>We gay people and our families are being hurt by laws as they stand, and all we are asking for is the concession that the word &#8220;marriage&#8221; include us so we may enjoy its rights &#8211; and responsibilities. I will leave you with the words of Mildred Loving, who wrote this forty years after her 1967 legal case struck down laws barring interracial marriage: </p>
<p>&#8220;Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don&#8217;t think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the &#8216;wrong kind of person&#8217; for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry.&#8221;</p>
<p>Peace.</p>
<p>P.S. I voted for Barack Obama with the fervent hope that he&#8217;ll come around to understanding the role he can play in advancing civil rights. Still hoping.</p>
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